Hey Asheron,
Sorry it took so long, I read your comments about 4 times.... Not sure (with the limits of this form of communication) but I think we are in agreement on the basic principles of this thread...
gordon d
JoinedPosts by gordon d
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Oops... must have touched some button....
Oh, and please do not commit the intellectually lazy act of thinking not believing in god means those who don't feel or are hopeless. Pascal's wager is just a sad way of
No one has anwered my question: (first define hope-less-ness)... the claim again was: If you are an atheist... what is your hope? If there is one, then I was mistaken in implying that there was not. Pascal's wager was limited to the contrast of Catholisim against atheistic viewpoint.... It was limited as an argument to any conclusion outside those parameters.
Nope, most don;t ask that. However a common question posed is "if there is a god why is there no evidence for god exisitng, and why is there always a perfectly satisfacoty (or at least as satisfactory) naturalistic explanation for all the things some people claim god did"?
A perfectly satisfactory answer implies an arrogance on the part of a proponent of a particular viewpoint... Are you saying that there is no debate between persons with far more knowledge than us on these "Facts"? The history of man is full of examples of believers in unknown (unseen) things... As a society, we celebrate the hopeful and vilify the skeptics as fools but only after the luxury of their discoveries have been "verified" by our standards. When we are in the "proving" stage how certain can we be. Example: Is there life on other planets....
Please do not restrict your rhetorical questions put on behalf of atheists to ones you find easy to answer.
Example?
Why on Earth do you think this is an argument? You presuuppose there IS an existence beyond this life. There is no proof of this. Why should someone not being able to demonstrate a hope for an unprovable and probably (as with other unprovable things) non-existent life after death be considered anything other than rational?
Same question/statement as above.....
But it is an egg you cannot prove you found. You can't exactly show it to anyone, can you? Even if they examine your path and look for evidence that would be classified in a court of law as 'beyond resonable doubt' or accepted in a peer-reviewed science journal, they will see no indication the egg exists outside of your mind .
I broke the egg to open it.... All I can show you is what was inside... If you really want to see, c'mon over.
And others say THEY have the ONLY egg and that YOU LIE, and that their egg will destroy all those that don't believe in it!!!!
Wow.. those people have some pissed off eggs! Glad I didn't get one of those! .... Oh wait, I do remember getting one of those eggs, lot's of people did, but I threw mine back.
There's a point? BAD analogy. Anyone anywhere can repeat the UV experiment and get the same results. Not so with testing god. There ARE results. If you replace sunlight with a duck or darkness, you get no reaction. Things seem to happen pretty much without god. You are asserting that the 'results' come from god, but why should we believe you? Why, the results you credit to god could come from my hairy arse or the almighty cosmic duck, or just be that way as that's the way the Big Banged (like 'cookie crumbled' but, like, really big)
I don't think I'm gonna try and use any more analogies here.
The point was not about testing God by scientific methods that are developed by our "Amazingly Vast Intellect" It was a statement about the openmindedness of people have haven't been handed the results of years of research.... Again: Do YOU beleive in life on other planets? (NOTE to READER--- This Question is NOT about life on other planets.. It's about YOU!!!)
The only person who seems to think their knowledge is unbounded is you. No one else is saying 'we' know everything. We are simply saying you nor anyone else has proof of god sufficient to pass the 'beyond reasonable doubt' test or peer review. In the absense of such proof you choose to believe. We don't. Get over it and please put your overweening superiority complex to one side until it fits you.
Smarter than you... who know's? More open-minded than you... who knows? More gullible than you... who knows? Maybe we'll get some answers if we keep looking.
You've implied that you are more knowledgable about theories of evolution.... you're probably right, it is not really a subject that fascinates me.
If I have implied that I know more about God than you.... maybe that is a fair statement too?
Why are you so sure you are not mentally ill? Hell, I've lost count of the number of god-whispers and Jesus we get through here. Some Islamic terrorists would describe a personal religious experience not unlike yours that lead them to kill people. There is NOTHING to differentiate the validity of your claims from theirs.
I'm not ruling anything out... I'm just looking at the results of this current "condition"... fortunately, there have been no signs of destructive behaviour.
Please, don't assume we haven't thought about this topic at great length and discussed it eventually. It's very arrogant to assume you are claiming ANYTHING new that someone hasn't claimed before, and that by the use of hacknied and unoriginal arguments we're suddenly going to say "gosh, there must be a god after all".
Perhaps... Just perhaps... This isn't about you! The first line of this thread was directed elswhere.. the statements that I've made since have been in response to someone else's questions. I hope i haven't ignored any of yours.
If none of the non-evidental arguments for god haven't worked in the past they won't work now just because it is YOU typing them.
You're probably right.....
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Abaddon,
Which god are you selling today?
The one you haven't heard about.
Oh - normally I find the chief qualification those who oppose current scientific theories regarding evolution know as much about evolution as my cat. Please tell me two different types of selection that take place in evolution, and describe in your own words what runaway evolution is. Having satisfied myself that you know what you're talking about and aren't simply banging in search strings into Google until you find someone who you agree with we can talk further on that topic.
If you'll share the sources that you used to gain YOUR knowledge, I promise not to Google anything, I'll try to confine my knowledge to the same texts, form my own opinions, and we can discuss the theories of others as long as you'd like. I will do my best not to let my current perspectives on the matter affect our discussion... I won't even bring my old HUM-ANT term papers.
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Borgia,
If I have received any sort of "gift" it has obviously not been the one of eloquent communication... perhaps I need a brother named Aaron. Any other "tounges" that I speak have been developed, the good old-fashioned way. I do apologize if my statements are more confusing than clarifying.
As far as the diversity of gifts that some people receive, I do not feel that all are manifestations of a "Holy" spirit.... many are nothing more than manipulations, some are innate abilities, some are derived from sincere emotions but are (social) anomalies, and some are spirit enabled but not from God. The ability to discern the differences can differ from person to person or culture to culture but there does seem to be one common thread among those that are genuine.......They serve a purpose. I've mentioned frequently that it is foolish to try and place constraints of human logic, physics, and reason on a being that is the very definition of "Super"-Natural... His ways are not man's ways but his interaction with mankind does seem to stay within the confines of what is in our ability to digest and what is of some benefit to our role in his agenda.
A litmnus test for these may very well be an ingrained sensibilty to some people... but it also may require being "plugged-in" to spiritual matters.... either way, self examination can help to develop a discerning eye towards these abilities, in believer and even non-beleivers.
What were you doing in the period before your “epiphany”?What were the circumstance that lead you to be open to this experience?
It was more a case of what I did NOT do than anything that I "did"....
Basically, I quit trying to figure it out and completely submitted to the impossibilty of that venture. I did not get "moved" by the persuasive teachings of man... I did not immerse myself in one of the many translations of the bible... I and I did not try and "earn" God's favor. I shut up (I know.. hard to believe) and listened.... I isolated myself from distractions and started asking God for His help, on His terms.... CONSTANTLY! I didn't even ask for additional wisdom or insight... nothing specific... just admitted my total frustration, humility, need for, and desire of a realtionship with Him.... I let my conscience be my guide and quit doing the things that I felt were "wrong".
It makes me think of a Father watching his son trying to assemble a toy that is far beyond his grasp... The father may ask if the son wants help but when the son shows that he wants to do it by himself, the father sits back and watches. Some son might say, "No, thank you"... some say "No, I wanna do it!"....some may even turn their back on their father to keep the toy out of his reach. The son's failure is not a loss but a learning opportunity that goes far beyond the mechanics of putting toys together. Finally beaten by the challenge, the son may leave the toy on the floor, may give it to his father, with his arms crossed and pout, or may actually admit that he has a need for dad's help..... For me, after every other attempt, It was finally complete handing everything over (the toy, tools, instructions... everything!) and asking God to show me, that opened the door for him to come in.
The point is......does your egg contain any substance or is it just nicely painted?
Who know's? Maybe some people have a need for flopping around on the floor and mumbling jibberish... I don't really see the point.
The egg that I found contains more amazing things than I could ever imagine! Not cheesy stuff... REAL life changing gifts.... In addition to the undescribable joy and peace that literally envelopes you is the new sense of purpose and meaning that shape your every thought. This is not the place to catalog the actions that say what a great humanitarian I've become... Those that have seen what has happened may be encouraged by them or they may think that I am a fool... I have heard plenty of both.... everyone can get what they want out of it. It is not just about feeding the hungry, taking in the homeless, nurturing the sick... it is also about sharing the REAL Good news to anyone with ears to hear. If you want more specifics, just PM.
The acceptance of God's spirit, bonding with yours, may sound like a controlling "take over".... Nothing could be further from the truth. You do not become a puppet, you do not loose any of your free-will, you do not loose any of your independent thinking, you do not loose your rationality, and you do not loose your love of people........ You may loose you love of the things in this world that are destructive, or disgusting, but if you miss them, you can always get them back.... It is always up to you.
There are thousands of pages that can be written on this.... entire chapters that could focus on nothing more than Paul's letters to different groups of believers, but I think that I've said too much already, in this forum. I welcome any PM's
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hey Asheron...
dam..just as the debate was heating up we hit he ultimate no-go zone
C'mon... Don't be such a wuss! I just gave you the easiest target ever!
What are you? some kinda' "GIRL" ..........There... that ought to do it!
P.S. I still gotta read your second to the last post but might be too tired tonight.....
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Parakeet.... See.... plenty of popcorn left!
EVERYONE!!! Please re-read the post,,,
The "Attack" was directed ONLY at those people (that happened to be atheist) that were making fun of some newbie's search for knowledge. By voicing their opinion (in a coercive manner) about the practicality of the existence of God...... It struck me as sad that IF the same person had expressed an interest in alternative lifestyles, Wicca, or scientology, that no condemnation would have been voiced.... we're all way too sophisticated for that! But if someone mentions the name Jesus, you'd think they were commiting their lives to Hitler!
If anybody else was offended, that was probably due to my poor analogy ... or ....their own guilty conscience.
Hey Asheron... Please give me some time to really "read" your last post... It's far too deep, just to glance over.
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Lightbulb Joke
by Asheron inq: how many born-again christians does it take to change a light bulb?.
they have already seen the light.. q: how many agnostics does it take to change a light bulb?.
a: we can't know.
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gordon d
A: One. He holds up the light bulb and the world spins around him.
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks, I needed that!
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Scully,
So on what, exactly do you base your "Pro-God" belief system? You haven't exactly explained your side of the argument during the course of this thread, even though you've required atheists to explain the basis for their belief system. Care to try? If it isn't anything to do with the "god" of the bible / New Testament, how do you regard yourself as a Christian? (I've been reviewing your posting history... )
It's not easy for me to communicate here, in writing... but if you really want to know, I'll give it a try... that's only fair.
I have some reservations about the Bible as we know it today. A history of it's origin and it's preservation cause more confusion than confirmation. I also do not believe that anything that we might generally consider as religion is a fundamental part of the intimate relationship that we can have with another being. Just as going through the ceremony of marriage does not automatically make you any "closer" to your spouse. However, I do believe that humans posses the abilty to "bond" with others on a level that science cannot explain. I feel that religions have been guilty of portraying an impression of God that is far removed from his true nature. I also believe that God has allowed this (and human suffering) for a reason and that he will not allow the current situation to last forever. But that is another topic, entirely.
I do believe in the biblical and historical accounts of Jesus.... also, that he was born into human form and ultimately acted as a sacrifice for the foundation of a new covenant between God and mankind. As ridiculous and barbaric as this originally sounded to me, the more searching that I did, the more "sense" that it made..... not to Western or even Eastern thinking but in equilibrium, at a higher level. I do believe that Christ is an entirely seperate entity than the one that "sent" him and has his own will and own thoughts. These views I can only support as being attained through spiritual enlightenment.... even an ability to discern man-made thoughts from God-inspired ones. I realize that this sounds like a form a mental illness but it does not manifest any of the traits of such a malidy (apart from the possibility of a transfixed delusionalism that has no accompanying psychoses... practically an unheard of condition) I do not believe that it is the place of anyone who has gained enlightenment to arbitrarily share knowledge with someone that is not given their own knowledge from spiritual powers. For example, translating of an understanding of a "true" Biblical parable to someone who has no real desire for the knowledge or no love for the will of the one who created it.
I am not saying that I've been given mystical powers? I am saying that an unexplainable change occured during my search for God. This change resulted to an immediate opening of my eyes to spiritual matters that had escaped me (no matter how much I had meditated on them in the past). Some people may refer to this as being born again, seeing the light, or becoming one with God. It's impossible to explain, there simply are no words for it. I would have NEVER believed it as something from God, at any point in my life... until it happened. The people that say one becomes a "new creature" are right..... just ask those that knew me before and after. It is not the same as the transformation of an achoholic in recovery, or a psych patient experiencing a breakthrough.... it is a complete changing of a persons very being. I fully realize that no one who has yet to experience this for themselves would ever understand it... but at the moment that it happens, you completely understand, and you have a peace that overwhelms you.
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Satanus... A little off topic but what the hell...
Here's an abbreviated perspective of just one scientific fact.
Proponents of the Big Bang theory claim that it took place 10-20 billion years ago... as of yet, no center point has been theorized. The galaxy Abell 1835 IR 1916 is calculated at being over 13,000,000,000 light years from earth and nearly 22,000,000,000 light years from the farthest know galaxy 172 degrees by 168 degree opposingly oriented. Even if matter (as we consider stars to be made up of) could travel at the speed of light (their visible presence precludes that) it contradicts the very formation of these items being cast with any velocity necessary for being visible in their current positions... let alone that they are not still visible as hurling bits of matter but as homogenous, symetrical forms, in mature life cycles.